[00:00:00] Molly: On my road show around Australia, I was approached by a lady and she said, "I wanna separate from my partner. He doesn't know, but I wanna kind of understand some of the steps I need to take now. So I'm not in a really bad financial position when I do decide to leave". And my advice was to get advice, so, speak to our family lawyer.

So in this episode today, I sit down with Tessa Kelman, who is a beautiful family lawyer based outta Sydney for Landon Rogers. And we talk about what are the things you need to prep when you are wanting to unti the knot. So we hope you find this episode helpful. Thank you so much for joining us on the show, Tessa.

[00:01:05] Tessa: Thanks for having me, Molly. I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:08] Molly: Yes. So this one is all about untying the knot. So we've tied the knot and then something's come up and we've decided we no longer wanna be with the partner we are with. So we thought it would be a great chat to you to break down some of the things that you think could be helpful and some of the mistakes you see, I guess, women make on this topic as well. And we did reschedule this podcast, but we had a really good reason because you became a mum for the second time.

[00:01:37] Tessa: That's right. My knot is very tired at the moment with another baby in the mix. So, thank you for rescheduling and I'm happy we can do it now.

[00:01:45] Molly: Oh no, we're very excited for you and your family. Very, very excited. So, let's like, kick off with, what are some of the biggest mistakes you see couples make when it comes to actually getting married?

[00:01:57] Tessa: Yeah, obviously there's lots of mistakes in all different contexts, but I'm gonna look at it through my family law lens. And one of the biggest mistakes I see really is not having a discussion before getting married or committing to someone in on a defacto basis, I suppose we can call either of them, tying the knot in this modern society in terms of your finances, For your past, present, and future. So having a discussion, which is something I know that you ladies always advocate for about what's your finance personality, what are your goals in the future? From my perspective as a family lawyer, it grows a little beyond that talking about, well, what assets do we own coming into our serious relationship?

[00:02:36] How Do we wanna deal with them in future? Are we aligned on wanting to invest versus wanting to spend our money? Are we big spenders or savers? And It's having that discussion early on. So I guess, you know that you are compatible for a money basis. And those discussions aren't going to lead to major arguments in future because you've had them.

[00:02:56] But Secondly, from my perspective, it's actually looking at your asset base as well. So what do you have now when you're getting serious with someone? And in future, if we do have to untie that knot, how are we going to divide those assets? So if I've got a million dollar property and, and I'm with you, Molly, and you have nothing, then we 

[00:03:13] should be talking About that because I'm coming in on a different playing field to you. So it's really having those honest discussions, not just about goals and personalities in terms of spending, but also what's on the table now, keeping a record, understanding where we're at before we get too serious in case 

[00:03:31] we have to untie things. 

[00:03:33] Molly: . 

[00:03:33] Yeah, and I guess people shy away from those conversations quite easily as well because they are a little bit uncomfortable and they can be a little bit awkward.

[00:03:41] Tessa: Yeah, exactly. And that sort of probably lends into my second biggest mistake, which flows from my comment about, well, what if one of us has a really big asset? You know, what if I'm, I've worked really hard or I've inherited an asset, 

[00:03:55] and we get together. We wanna have a discussion about that, and I know you're probably gonna ask me about prenuptials or financial agreements a little later, so I won't go into detail, but that's another of my top tips.

[00:04:07] Talk about those things, they're hard, but if you've got that asset, you need to protect it or understand, what your partner thinks of that asset moving forward. So it's really good to raise those, those bigger discussions around finances and what we're going to do and, and do we wanna draw a line in the sand or make an agreement at the start of our relationship before it gets too difficult.

[00:04:30] Tessa: And I think the third thing I would say, just from a slightly different perspective, but very much a family law perspective is, well, let's have a discussion about what our future's gonna look like in terms of children as well. I know it's not strictly financial, but really they are because they're very expensive.

[00:04:45] And discussing, you know, do we want kids? Let's be on the same page. And if we do from a financial perspective, how do we wanna raise them? Is it private school? Is it public school? People have their own backgrounds. So, I do really see marriages coming unstuck financially, but also from an incompatibility in terms of not discussing those big things like children and, and how that's gonna play out in the marriage or relationship.

[00:05:09] Molly: Absolutely so many important things to discuss. And I've heard of, you know, multiple situations where there's been an assumption that the other partner will just take time off work to, have the child raise a child, but the conversation never took place, and so then it's ended up in a separation because they were just so misaligned on that very important topic.

[00:05:31] Tessa: Absolutely. And how important for us as women, and you know, for your listeners we're modern women with careers and it's absolutely fine to want to be a mom the whole time, a stay-at-home mom. There's no problems with that. But having the discussion, not just an expectation that maybe the female's gonna fall into that role,

[00:05:49] Molly: Mm-hmm. . Absolutely. I know this is a question whenever we run sessions with Ladies Finance Club, we get a lot, which is actually what is the difference between a de facto relationship and a marriage? And I think some people might be in de facto relationships and not even know they're in a defacto relationship.

[00:06:08] So what's that kind of definition?

[00:06:10] Tessa: Yeah, and good question, and you're right. I think people commonly always say, I'm, I'm not quite sure what the difference is. I'll talk quickly about the end result. Whether you are defacto or married, it doesn't really matter, which is why I was talking at the beginning about whether we're tying the knot formally or not.

[00:06:27] If we reach that defacto status or threshold, the family court essentially can, get their hands on our property settlement, where serious enough that if we can't agree on things, then one party can go off to a family lawyer or to the court. So that's the ramifications of being defacto or being married.

[00:06:46] If you're married, it's fairly obvious you have, a ceremony no matter what it looks like you're committed to that person. You're in what we call a partnership, and by, tying that knot, so to speak, you fall within the jurisdiction of the family court. So that means that you know, if there's a dispute, one of you can go onto the court and ask for the court to resolve your parenting or property settlement.

[00:07:08] Now the same meaning arises if your defacto, which essentially means. , you haven't married, but you're in what the family law legislation likes to call a genuine domestic relationship. Now, what is that? So you say, well, you might not even know if you are defacto. There's a few criteria and essentially you need to either have been together for two years, have a child, or have made some big contributions, you know, purchasing a property together or something like that.

[00:07:38] Molly: Yeah.

[00:07:39] Tessa: Often people say, well, if I'm together for two years, I'm defacto. It's not quite simple. Think of those three criteria. Opening the doors. So we open the doors to the defacto threshold room, but do we actually meet the criteria and the court says, okay, well you've met one of the first steps, but we also need to look at, well, what does your relationship look like? And this one's a little bit subjective. You know, different judges will have different opinions. But the type of things we're going to look at are sexual relations between the parties, the public aspects of their relationship, the commitment to a shared life, purchasing of assets, having children. 

[00:08:18] So, yes, you have to either be two years, have a child or make a contribution, but then the court will say, well, let's look beyond that at what's involved in your relationship. So it's hard to give a straight answer because every case is different as you can imagine. But yes, you need to have been living together or, intertwined for at least two years or have a child or make those contributions before you can be considered defacto. It's a tricky one. There's a lot of criteria. 

[00:08:46] But really, I say to people if you are starting to get serious and you're, you're living together or spending a lot of time together, or you're thinking about a child, then we need to assume that you're getting towards that de facto status.

[00:08:58] Molly: And then as you said, it's similar to getting married, so then if there was a breakup, people can have a claim over your property, even your super, all those different things.

[00:09:09] Tessa: Yep. All of a sudden you're in the hands, I suppose, of the family court. Whereas, you know, if I've been in a casual relationship with someone for one year and they all of a sudden want, a piece of my asset pool, they can't do anything because we haven't met the threshold. So that's really what it comes down to.

[00:09:27] Molly: I think that's one that people just don't quite understand. And as you said, it is a little bit grey, but that criteria kind of spells it out nicely.

[00:09:35] Tessa: Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:37] Molly: So I know the Americans call it a prenup and we call it a binding financial agreement in Australia 

[00:09:42] Tessa: That's right. right. 

[00:09:45] Molly: I mean, you are a family lawyer. You're gonna probably say this is definitely something that you should do when you're looking at getting married or being in a defacto relationship, but, , I guess it's quite an awkward conversation. It's like, "Hey, if we ever break up, you can't have my stuff." So I guess first of all, like just breaking down what is a prenup and also Yeah.

[00:10:06] Any tips on how to actually bring that up in a conversation without offending the other party?

[00:10:12] Tessa: Yeah, good question. It actually leads nicely from the previous question. So if we become defacto or married, we're at risk of our partner taking us to court. If the not untied and things don't go well, basically, The only way in Australia to overcome that is to enter into what we call a financial agreement, which is a prenup. It's a contractual agreement, which means that you're not subject to the family court anymore. So you're essentially saying, me and my partner, husband, wife, whatever it may be, a contracting out of the family law legislation, and we'd like to do our own thing, and we'd like to write that down on. You can't write it on a survey.

[00:10:52] You can't write it on a piece of paper and sign the back. It's very formal because you're saying to the family court, we don't wanna be part of this and we've done our own thing. So it's a document that sets out how your assets are going to be divided if you separate and you both need legal advice from well qualified lawyers.

[00:11:10] People tend to look for a really cheap document, maybe done by a suburban lawyer who doesn't practice in family law. And that's quite risky because often they'll be set aside or they won't protect your interest. 

[00:11:21] So it is an in-depth document that needs to be done properly. And certainly the law is always changing in this sphere. So you need a lawyer who's up to date because when it comes back to it, you're doing quite a serious thing from a legal perspective.

[00:11:37] Molly: The argument comes up a lot. I hear where people are like, well, does it even stand in a court? But when it's not done by a family lawyer who knows what they're doing, then sometimes, yeah, maybe it won't be

[00:11:48] Tessa: Exactly. It's a tricky concept to bring up and that's why I say to people, one of the best things you can do is bring it up early in the relationship rather than at a pressure point.

[00:11:59] Because as family lawyers we will often get people saying, I'm getting married in a month, and all of a sudden my partner said that a prerequisite to the marriage is a binding financial agreement, or we're about to have a baby, or, you know, some pressure point in life where all of a sudden the other party is having a minor freakout. And family lawyers are really reluctant to do an agreement in that circumstance because as you can imagine, you'd be feeling pressure or duressed to sign this document. So, we need to be careful when we do it. It needs to be a situation where there isn't that pressure because that can be a reason to set these documents aside.

[00:12:36] So I think Molly, like you said, the best time is really to just have that tricky conversation at the start, or there might be a catalyst for it. I've had clients where they've been left a large trust structure or an inheritance, and one of the prerequisites is that they then enter into a financial agreement their partner or if you've been saving for a long time me and my own rat, you know, I'm an independent woman and I wanna buy an investment property, I'm sorry, but this is how I'm gonna make sure it's set up for myself.

[00:13:05] All of those are good times to bring it up and appropriate. We just have to be assertive. For ourselves and you give lots of good tips through your courses about how to do that.

[00:13:15] Molly: Yeah. And can you get one, even if you are married already?

[00:13:19] Tessa: Yeah, so there's various types of financial agreements in Australia. You can basically have one before marriage, before being defacto during defacto during marriage or even after marriage, which is more like a property settlement. But sometimes we use that form of document. 

[00:13:36] So yes, you can have it at any time. It's just a different section of the legislation that it's under. 

[00:13:43] And sometimes for couples, we'll do one that's relevant before marriage, but also during marriage. So we'll do two mirror agreements just to cover all bases so it can get a little technical, but you can do it at any time. People think I'm married, I've lost my chance. That's not true. 

[00:13:59] Molly: When you are in a relationship, is it helpful to both be paid into your individual accounts and then pay into a joint account just to make it super clear what each has contributed or does it just not matter because in the end it's all gonna be divvied up?

[00:14:13] Tessa: Good question and the key thing really is just good record keeping. So even if it's a joint account, I wanna see Molly's salary each month. Clearly defined. Any inheritance Molly receives or cash payments Molly makes clearly defined. So we're not sitting there years later saying, what was that? Who contributed what? 

[00:14:35] And again, it depends on the length of the marriage. You know, if, we're looking at a 30 year marriage, then we're not very interested in the income from the first year, but if we're together for three, and all we did was earn good income and spend it, then it's very relevant. So it doesn't really matter if it's your own account or not. Your own account might feel neater for record keeping purposes, and that's totally fine and you might feel, you know, more independent and in control. But at the end of the day, it's just about good record keeping. 

[00:15:05] Always labeling things properly. We don't wanna dispute, was that a loan? Was it a gift? Was it inheritance? So that would be the main advice on that point, really.

[00:15:16] Molly: That's a great tip. And we're gonna be talking more around like how to have those personal conversations with a partner and money questions you should be asking before you get married in another episode. So for someone who is like, okay, this isn't really working out for me, I think I wanna call it how does it work and what should they start prepping now?

[00:15:37] Tessa: So. What I usually suggest, and it sounds like a bit of a sale pitch, but it's not, is just to get some advice. And that can be a free initial 15 minute consult. Just get some tips from someone who's an expert in the family law field, or maybe your financial advisor can assist you, because it really depends on what, we're dividing here.

[00:15:57] So you know, what's in your knot? Have we got children? Have we got big assets? Have we only been together a couple of years and there's not that much to separate, but I'll give you some of my top tips that I would give generally, which is. Before you sort of have the discussion and always, it depends on the circumstances and how amicable things are, but certainly if it was me, I would be getting key financial documents.

[00:16:22] So copies of, you know, all the latest bank statements, the superannuation, the house records, anything you can and again, that's one of my tips to, keep good records throughout the relationship. So this is easier, but sometimes we see people disclosing to the other party, and women sometimes get locked out of all the information. So get your hands on whatever information you can. It's your information. You're entitled to do that.

[00:16:46] If there's children. I often say have a think about where the passports are, some arrangements for the kids. Just think about, you know, protecting yourself in terms of if there's violence or issues in terms of the other party, retaining the children without your consent, it's better to think ahead and get those passports and make arrangements for the children.

[00:17:05] Molly: Yep. Definitely.

[00:17:06] Tessa: The vulnerability of joint funds is another good thing to think about at the start. Again, it depends on how amicable things are, but if we've got $500,000 C in the bank account, and that's the total of our liquid funds, if our partner was to freeze or lock all that money, what would we do?

[00:17:24] Would we have any money left to get legal advice or look after ourselves? So just think about, setting things. For yourself so you're not left in a vulnerable situation. And then I would usually say, have the discussion with your partner about separating with a bit of legal advice under your belt, just so you feel empowered. 

[00:17:42] And you can say, we need to have a discussion about finances, children. This is what I'm thinking. You can go on with a clear mind. It's a very difficult discussion to. And you know, in the background, you've done a little bit of preparation for yourself, which can go a long way often if things do turn sour.

[00:18:03] Molly: Yes. And I know um, from speaking with members and friends when they've been in that situation their partner's gone, oh, you don't need to seek legal advice. Don't even worry about it. I'll look after you. And that did not happen, and documents went missing very quickly.

[00:18:20] Which I'm sure it's something you probably see and hear about quite often.

[00:18:24] Tessa: Yeah. And unfortunately for women we're often vulnerable in that sense because there still is the stereotypical, you know, the male manages the finances and knows where all the documents are and hides things away or, or starts to be really difficult. So, I often say some preparation goes a long way.

[00:18:41] And I think another point that you've made before Molly as well, is just setting up a really good team around. So not, just a family lawyer, but do we need a psychologist to assist you through this phase? 

[00:18:52] The family financial advisor or accountant is often really important if we've got complex trust structures or, documentation that our client, if she's the female who's been at home, may not have access to.

[00:19:04] So that's another top tip, really getting your team around you so you feel supported and empowered through what's gonna be a really difficult time, even if it's amicable.

[00:19:13] Molly: What about just keeping records on your phone? Like if you go into the office and just taking photos on your phone and things like that. Would that kind of still work as like a point of evidence 

[00:19:22] Tessa: Absolutely. Yeah, because you're coming to your lawyer or you're trying to sort it out yourselves and you're saying, at least I know that my husband or my wife had this super fund that they have now, not disclosed. It's all of a sudden disappeared. And all these shares, you know, let's just get records of whatever we can. It doesn't have to be originals.

[00:19:39] Molly: And 

[00:19:39] Tessa: some idea.

[00:19:40] Molly: Yeah. And if your partner says, no, you don't need to seek legal advice. advice. 

[00:19:45] Tessa: Do if they're saying that 

[00:19:46] Molly: You probably really need it. And I also think this is, again, why we always talk about having emergency funds in your own name, where you have like that money. If you need it, it's yours. So if anything happens, you know that you've got access to cash for exactly those reasons. So

[00:20:01] Tessa: Yeah, and I think, Yeah, that's a real pro actually, Molly, of having your own account, just making sure you have some funds if you ever needed them that are in your name, totally accessible to you. I think that's a really good idea as well.

[00:20:15] Molly: Okay, so that's kind of some of prep work you can do. in separations and divorces, do you automatically get kind of 50% of everything?

[00:20:24] Tessa: No, definitely not in Australia. There's no starting point of 50% and often. In the case law, the longer the relationship is and if they've had children and sort of blended their life over a long period of time, then the more likely we are to be close to 50%.

[00:20:42] And a good example, which is still quite a typical example, is the woman stopped working and has looked after the children and the man's continued working. He's obviously generated the wealth. She's done the homemaking. The man might say, it's all my money because I've been the one working. 

[00:20:59] But no, in that circumstance with a long relationship, unless there's big cash injections from one side or other factors that make things the case where it shouldn't be 50 50, then we're looking more towards 50 50.

[00:21:13] But let's flip that on its head. What if it's a three year relationship or a five year relationship with no children and one party bought in a million dollars and the other bought in nothing. Then it's not going to be 50 50. And I think it's just probably a good time to just briefly mention how the court would look at dividing your assets.

[00:21:33] And I'll just talk about it really briefly. But there's basically five steps, and Molly, we've talked about these before, but it's, good to know why it's not 50 50. And that's basically, well, what assets do we have? all your assets, doesn't matter whose name they're in, what are they worth? How did we each contribute to those assets throughout the relationship from both a financial, non-financial parenting and homemaker perspective, and then looking at, well, how do we fairly divide these assets in terms of what we need in future as well?

[00:22:03] And that's really important. One, often for women, if we're not in the workforce, we need to look forward and look ahead at, well, what does the future look like? If we've got lots of children, do we need more of the assets than the male needs, for instance? 

[00:22:15] So the court sort of goes through a number of steps, but it's really all about what's, what did we contribute looking at the future and what looks like a fair outcome? 

[00:22:25] So that's sort of a snapshot of why it's not always 50 50.

[00:22:30] Molly: Yeah. And with charged custody as well. Is that part of the divorce or is that considered separate?

[00:22:35] Tessa: Yeah. So, I like to talk about it and I think I've shown you this concept with different bubbles. There's often when two people separate, there's a lot to resolve. There's not just the finances, there's also the children and what are we doing for the children. There's sometimes a concept called spouse maintenance, where one spouse might need to be financially maintained by the other.

[00:22:56] Then we've got child support as well. If there are children, . And lastly, the concept of divorce, which is largely an administrative process, but there's different concepts that we need to work on resolving when a separation does take place. And yes, they all sort of occur at the same time, but they're different, agreements and different discussions for each topic.

[00:23:19] It's difficult to answer in a short period of time because they do all impact 

[00:23:22] Molly: Fact. Yeah. And so the divorce itself, is that actually just like a document, an admin thing?

[00:23:28] Tessa: Yeah, so people usually say you know, I need to work out my divorce. And in actual fact, we need to work out your property settlement, your child support, your child custody arrangements. We call them parenting arrangements in Australia and spouse maintenance. The divorce is often the last sort of administrative document, and really that's because all you need to do is be separated for a certain period of time, which is a year or two years. If you're a defacto, which obviously you don't need a divorce for, but after two years, you're sort of considered at the end of your period where you can go to the family court.

[00:24:02] And for married couples, really, they're just separated for a year and then they lodge an application for divorce through the court. That's very administrative. And it, comes back usually if there's no issues with Yep, you are, you're divorced and 

[00:24:15] Molly: I see. Yeah. 

[00:24:16] Tessa: if you want.

[00:24:17] Molly: But you should always, do the separation stuff first before you sign the divorce document.

[00:24:22] Tessa: Yeah, and the reason that suggest that is because once you are formally divorced, you then only have 12 months to go to the family court. If you need to. 

[00:24:35] So if you're divorced and then you have a tricky property settlement and it's just not resolving, and you really do need the option of the family court's assistance, if you're past that 12 month window, you're considered out of time because obviously the court wants to close the door at some point. You can get an exemption, but it's more difficult. So sometimes even if we're getting up to that 11th month and someone did file for the divorce beforehand, we may need to, you know, commence a fairly basic application just to keep the door open.

[00:25:04] Molly: Okay. God, that must catch a lot of people out.

[00:25:07] Tessa: Yeah, especially if people separate and wanna do their divorce really quickly, don't talk to a lawyer and then do their property settlement a bit later. it can catch you out. So I usually say sign the divorce once you're signing all the other documents in one go, because we know tied everything up.

[00:25:23] Molly: Yeah. Okay. Ah, this has been so good. Thank you so much, 

[00:25:27] Tessa. 

[00:25:28] Tessa: You're welcome. 

[00:25:28] Molly: So when it comes to the property settlement, what are the steps the court would go through to work out who gets what?

[00:25:35] Tessa: Yeah, I think this is a really important one. Molly and I did probably gloss over it quite quickly before, but in Australia, and it's different in every country, so don't look at what England does, for instance, cuz it's different. But in Australia there's five steps that the family court follow and those steps are set out in the family court legislation.

[00:25:51] We as family lawyers try to veer away from the family court, but we obviously use the legislation as a backdrop to guide our clients. So essentially the court wants to look at, well, what assets do each party own? And a really important thing here that I often get asked in these type of forums is, does it matter if the assets in my name or joint names or his name, it doesn't, any asset which you have an interest in, including.

[00:26:17] Molly: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:18] Tessa: a trust doesn't mean that you're protected from the family court jurisdiction. They all go into the bucket of assets, and that's where it's important to get snapshots of documents that. You know, you may not otherwise have access to it if you separate so we know what's in your bucket. 

[00:26:35] We, then it's the second step. Look at, well, what contributions have you each made to those assets after we've put a value on them? So there is a little bit of time involved in trying to value what's actually in your property settlement, and then the contributions. That's important, particularly from a female perspective, because we're not only looking at financial contributions, we're not just looking at, big incomes. Cash that's injected into the relationship. But we're also looking at non-financial contributions in the form of homemaker and parenting, which, you know, often women still bear the brunt of. Once we've looked at the contributions, each party is made, we usually come to a bit of a percentage outcome. So let's just say it's 50 50.

[00:27:16] The woman maybe did more of the homemaking, the husband was more of the breadwinner or vice versa. But we also then need to look forward at the future needs of the parties. And this one, again, is really important for women who have young children and may take on the primary carer role. And this is why all the sort of family law concepts sort of combined because we've gotta look at, well, what are the arrangements for the children if they're with mom more?

[00:27:41] She's going to need more than 50% because she's got three children under five, for instance, or she may have health issues. So we do look forward as well at, the future needs of the parties. And then we basically, we've got this 50 50 split. We may say, well, mom needs another five to 10% to even up where she is in terms of her future. And then the court will come to a percentage, let's say mom's now up to 57.5, and as the last step, the court will really just say, well, is that a fair or just an equitable outcome? And in doing that, they'll also look at the mix of assets. 

[00:28:16] So we're not just gonna give a young mom a hundred percent of the super and no income generating assets or house to live in. You know, that wouldn't be fair. So we look at how do we mix up these assets as well. 

[00:28:27] And then coming into all of that is also, of course, child support. What support will these children have? And also, do we need some spouse maintenance to keep one party going for a period? Is the property settlements enough?

[00:28:40] So that's sort of just a snapshot of how it all works in Australia, which might be helpful.

[00:28:45] Molly: Yeah. No, very helpful. And I think, you know, all this comes back to those questions you said at the start where, you know, people aren't having these in-depth conversations as well. Like, it's so important to have these because getting separated is quite the process and has huge impact on all areas of your life. Just with mediators. How do mediators differ from family lawyers?

[00:29:06] Tessa: Yeah, good question. So when you go to resolve a family law dispute, there's lots of ways you can do that. You could. Discuss it yourselves and reach an agreement and bring it to a lawyer to just write up. You can go to court, which is obviously the less desirable, but sometimes necessary path. Or you can try and mediate your dispute in some sort of way.

[00:29:27] So we may just write letters back and forth, or we may actually engage a formal family law mediator to assist. So that's someone who is in. Everything that happens is confidential. So the parties usually will have their own lawyers or they'll go into the mediation without their lawyers, but maybe their lawyers are helping in the background and the mediator's, the person that doesn't give legal advice often, they are qualified family lawyers, so they've got the background to be able to conduct.

[00:29:56] The negotiation, but they're there to facilitate an outcome and to say, you know, what are the issues on the table today? What do we need to look at? Molly, can you look at that in a different way to try and understand how your partner's looking at it? Can we reach a middle ground? You know, they're really there to facilitate a negotiation and a resolution.

[00:30:13] And then the family lawyers are the ones that sort of formalize and draw up what the pies have agreed.

[00:30:19] Molly: So for people who you know, might not have a huge income and the law fees would be quite anex expense to them, what do they do in that situation? Is that where people kind of use those mediators 

[00:30:30] Tessa: Yeah, often. So, you know, I help a broad spectrum of clients and often when money is an issue, I'll just give a little bit of advice at the start and then assist in the background. I'll usually suggest if they're not comfortable talking to their partner directly or, writing an email that I might assist with, There's lots of free government funded mediation as well, 

[00:30:51] So there's organizations like Uniting Care or Relationships Australia, where you can attend a qualified mediator in a public setting rather than, you know, paying for a private mediator to assist you to reach a resolution.

[00:31:04] Molly: Oh, thank you so much, Tessa. This has been so great. like, you know, you don't know what you don't know, so thank you for breaking it down so clearly.

[00:31:11] Tessa: No problems, Molly

[00:31:13] Molly: Now we've got some questions we ask all our guests on the show. The first one is just where did you grow up and did you think you would end up in family?

[00:31:20] Tessa: So I was actually born in Byron Bay, and then I moved to the Blue Mountains with my mom. So I was sort of from a bit more of a hippie background, I suppose. I always wanted to be a lawyer. I was. Really into negotiating, but I wanted to help people. I didn't like black and white law, so it was fairly obvious to me that I needed to be working with people and children, and that's where family law sort of stood out to me. Yep. 

[00:31:46] Molly: Yeah. Awesome. what was the best piece of advice you got about money growing up?

[00:31:50] Tessa: That's a good question. I was always given advice around not spending money that you don't have. That's not consistent when you become an adult and you need a mortgage. But I think it's a really good way of looking at your money and your finances. So I became a really big budgeter. I would love, and, I, think Betsy says this really well, where she has the different buckets of money. So it's, you know, this is my spendings, this is my fun money. This is my rainy day, this is my emergency fund. And I was really into that because it was not spending money that I didn't have, and it was being really organized in my budgeting.

[00:32:26] That all goes out the window when you try and buy a property in Sydney, but I think it's a really good way of structuring your finances from, you know, a really early stage.

[00:32:34] Molly: Yeah. And that was the next question, how do you budget? But it sounds like you use the bucket system 

[00:32:39] Tessa: I'm all into the spreadsheets,

[00:32:41] Molly: spreadsheets. Yeah. And um, has it been a purchase you regret recently?

[00:32:46] Tessa: I also racked my brain on this and I couldn't think of one. And I think it's because I'm such a planner. So if I'm gonna buy something, I've saved for it. It's not on my credit card. I've thought about it and I've probably researched it. So I couldn't think of something I regret, but I think it's probably because that way of thinking about money is quite ingrained in.

[00:33:05] Molly: Yes. That makes total sense. And do you have like favorite podcasts or anything you're reading at the moment?

[00:33:12] Tessa: So I love being a lawyer. All of the sort of investigative journalism been following the Chris Dawson verdict because those type of podcasts like the teacher's pet are my favourite. But also being a new mom, I love to listen to Mom podcast know, there's a lot of podcasts these days, which I think you raise would be interested in about, you know things like sharing the mental load and all of a sudden you become a mom and you are the person that's thinking about packing the lunches and what's on the shopping list and how fair is that in this modern day generation. So I'm quite into that type of podcast at the moment 

[00:33:47] Molly: Yeah. 

[00:33:48] Tessa: Really challenging my husband to share the load a bit more

[00:33:51] Molly: Nice. And are there any kind of podcasts, like names that you can mention? 

[00:33:55] Tessa: I do like Australian birth stories, which is a different, different topic, but also there's two moms in Sydney who do a podcast called, we Don't Have Time for This. It touches on a lot of these points about, you know, why the mom's doing everything, why they always contacted by daycare. Why are they, you know, carrying so much of the mental load. So that's one of my favourites lately. 

[00:34:17] Molly: Awesome. 

[00:34:18] Tessa: That, role for us. in society.

[00:34:20] Molly: Yeah, it's so important and it's such an ingrained role that needs to be changed and then a light hack that you love, that you think not many people might know about this. 

[00:34:30] Tessa: So my one people may know about, but it's really useful for me. So obviously with all of us being busy career people and some of us mums as well, I do all my shopping online and I don't write lists. Instead, I put the groceries straight into my Woolworth app when I need them. So then as soon as you go to do your shopping, it's all populated. So throughout the week you've added everything. You don't 

[00:34:55] Molly: Yeah, 

[00:34:55] Tessa: it down, and it's all day ready to go. 

[00:34:57] Molly: That's gonna be helpful. I think, for a lot of listeners. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Tessa, and if people wanna learn more about Landon Rogers, where can they go? 

[00:35:06] Tessa: So really you can search Lander and Rogers on Google to find our family law page. We've got lots of helpful information there. We've also got an Instagram, a LinkedIn me personally, you can look up my name, Tessa Hellman, and you'll find my profile with my firm and also my LinkedIn. We offer initial consultations at no charge.

[00:35:27] So like I said, if you just need a little bit of legal advice to get you by or just to know that you're heading in the right direction, you can always contact me or any of my colleagues for that purpose.

[00:35:36] Molly: Wonderful. Thank you so much and thank you so much for what you do. It really does change lives and we really appreciate your time coming on the show, 

[00:35:43] Tessa: Thanks, Molly. And same to you guys. This is such a great forum and idea to empower women. I love it.